Hydrogen generator info.

[ECM747X]

Hey all,


As Eric, Jeff and I were discussing last night on TS, I have been involved with making and tuning a car using a Supplemental Hydrogen generator. I made my own unit using 316 stainless for the tank, Welded up by a buddy of mine, PVC pipe for the water separator, relays, amp gage, potentiometer and tubing all bought at AutoZone in town. My first version using a Platinum coil did produce good output but not enough without a higher amperage draw. I then made a 6 plate version, more surface area, and got great results with that. At 13 amps draw I can produce right around 75 liters per hour of HHO. (used a device from a hospital, kind of like a breathalizer that measures air output) I made a potentiometer to lower the amperage and I am getting my best results of producing 32 liters per hour and only using 6-7 amps. ( my car has a 2.7 liter engine) I also use 1.5 tea spoons of Potassium Hydroxide as a catalyst to the water. You can use baking soda and other things, just be carefull, somethings add corrosive gases into the mix and toxic gases. This just was a better catalyst. What is does is make the water better for the electrolysis process and give you much better gains. When running 13 amps with no catalyst, I would only get about 15-17 liters of HHO per hour. On average, you want a minimum of 10 liters of HHO per hour to 1 liter of engine size to get the best mixture to help the combustion process. When running the mixture and amps above I am getitng about 750- 800 miles out of a gallon of water and 1.5 teaspoons of catalyst. I get a 2 lbs bag of PH (KOH) for only $10.00 and it will last the better part of a year as it stand now. So not much cost there.
Now, this is not to run the car just on HHO, but to add it to the fuel to help the combustion process. It helps the efficiency of the fuel burn to give you more power. Just a normal car running gas is only about 65% efficient in the fuel burn. Meaning 35% of the fuel is unburned and going right out the tailpipe. Adding HHO can get this into the 90% + area. To run a car on pure Hydrogen would require Ceramic coated pistons and stainless valves due to Hydrogen is such a "Dry" fuel. Plus the higher temp of Hydrogen when combusted. One does not nned to worry about the octane rating of HHO..It is 116. Thus meaning it is a slower burning fuel. The higher the octane rating the slower the fuel burns. Hence why you can add more timing to higher octane cars. That is another story.
On fuel injected cars, and there is no getting around this Esty, especially with OBD2 cars (1996 and up), you have to compensate for the increase in O2 added to the fuel burn. When the O2 sensor sees more O2 in the fuel burn, it will lower the voltage of the output of the o2 sensor and this signal is interpreted by the computer as a lean mixture and the computer will attempt to add more fuel to the burn. ALL modern cars do this. This could take away any gains you get from the HHO generator. I have witnessed it first hand in my own car. I had my scan tool hooked up and my computer was constantly taking 17% of fuel on the short term fuel trim before the addition of the HHo unit. As soon as I added the HHO generator, it started adding fuel, an upwards of 20%. Not good. I actually went down in mileage. I then added my home made compensator, got all the parts online and cost me $30.00 to build, and slowly added voltage to both O2 circuits. I have had to up the voltage .250 and have now gotten my computer taking about 20% fuel back out like it was before I added the HHo unit. I have now gained, on the last 3 tanks, 6-8 mpg My Intrepid was getting 26-28 mpg and I am now getting 34-36 MPG. At a total cost of about $200 dollars. You can see that it will pay for itself rather quickly. This is in 75% highway and 25% city, to and from work. I am not adjusting anymore.
Another notice I have found is the oil stays cleaner as well. I am guessing less carbon deposits getting past the rings into the oil from less unburned fuel. My car even runs smoother as well. Some thing I wasn't expecting. it even has a little more pickup too.
This all above is all in pretty plain terms. I have an extensive background in Fuel injection and tuning of cars.I have setup many race trucks and cars for people. I have my own truck that produces 550HP at the wheels that I have built and tuned myself. I do know how all the fuel injection precess works and all the components and how they interface with the Computer.
There are other things you can also change voltages of to help in fuel economy, MAP sensor, MAF sensor and a couple more, but really isn't needed. Just a simple change of the O2 sensor voltage, when using the HHO generator is enough to get good gains without leaning your fuel air mixture and possibly damaging your engine.
Esty, I came across this site several month back that might help explain the O2 sensor issue. Now, this revolves around a product they sell, but is great info. The O2 Voltage regulator I made looks just like theirs does..lol I copied their design actually.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/index.php
If you want to learn more on Supplemental Hydrogen generators, just google it. There is so much info out there. Plus, many people are getting rich off of selling pre made kits. The one I made looks a lot like this one http://www.savefuel.ca/hydrogen/smallpr ... arproducts The SL-75. Look at what he sells it for. I have only 200 in mine and 50 of that was changing from the platinum coil to a 6 cell plate. So it should have only cost me $150.00. But it is my trial and error there.
Just a little info on what I have come up with in my tests. Any questions, just ask.

[Pyg]

Now proceed to close this thread.

[ECM747X]

lol why is that Rob? Just giving some info that was asked of me last night and to point Esty in the right direction because he is doing this himself. Just trying to help since I have already been there.

[Rock]

That is a VERY INTERESTING process. I'm going to look into it and explore those possibilities with my out-of-warranty cars.

However, your definition of octane is incorrect. You stated:

One does not nned to worry about the octane rating of HHO..It is 116. Thus meaning it is a fast burning fuel. The higher the octane rating the faster the fuel burns. Hence why you can add more timing to higher octane cars. That is another story.

Octane rating, as applied to fuels for internal combustion engines, is defined as:

a measure of the autoignition resistance of gasoline and other fuels used in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. It is a measure of anti-detonation of a gasoline or fuel.

... It should be noted that octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel (see heating value), nor the speed at which the flame initiated by the spark plug propagates across the cylinder. It is only a measure of the fuel's resistance to autoignition.

... A high tendency to autoignite, or low octane rating, is undesirable in a spark ignition engine but desirable in a diesel engine.

In other words, it is the measure of a fuel's ability to resist pre-ignition due to compression... also known as "knock". It has nothing to do with how fast it burns. This is why diesel engines have low-octane fuel... because diesels rely on compression for ignition (they WANT the fuel to detonate).

You say "add more timing to higher octane cars." What you really mean is "advance" the spark ignition (earlier than TDC) for higher octane fuels versus "retard" the ignition (closer to TDC) for lower octane fuels... which the computer does automatically with the "knock sensor". But the reason for this is NOT due to the speed of burn. It is due to the compression-effect of the combustion wave-front within the cylinder. As the fuel combusts, the pressure increases in the cylinder AND the cylinder is still in it's compression stroke. If all things were perfect, the maximum cylinder pressure is reached just as the piston reaches TDC and commences its power-stroke. However, if the spark was too advanced for low-octane fuel, the unignited combustibles will self-detonate (due to the combustion pressure) too soon before TDC, thus causing knock and possible engine-damage over the long term. The computer will sense this condition with its knock-sensor, and thus back off on the spark-advance.

I just wanted to clarify those details.

Regardless, I see how the hydrogen-assis is all suppose to work, and I can see why there is an increase in O2. My question is, how safe is it? Hydrogen, after all, is very explosive because it's already in the gaseous state.

[ECM747X]

Sorry Jeff, I missed typed there. It is the higher the octane the slower it burns. This is how it counteracts pre ignition by slowing the burn down. Thus, when the piston is at TDC the fuel has not yet reached full burn. But it does slow the fuel burn time the higher the octane. Sorry was in a hurry. Also, there are many engines that can't use knock sensors. Like the 5.4 Ford. Due to a harmonic right at the same frequency the Knock sensor uses. This is due to the Modular design of the 5.4. They are disabled and not used. There are several more vehicles that don't use them as well.. As in my truck, I have the timing advanced/added, the fuel curves, load curves, and many other things changed to run at 93 octane. One can advance the timing due to the fuel burning slower to use the longer time to TDC it takes for the fuel to totally ignite from when the plug fires.. I also have a tune that adds more timing when using 110 octane fuel. I get about 570 hp using 110 octane and still being a little conservative on the timing.


When you are in closed loop with the Computer, the 02 sensors and many other sensors provide many inputs and timing is one of them that is controlled. Once you hit about 80% throttle you go into an open loop control and then pre determined tables in the computer control fuel and timing. Knock sensors are taken out of the loop after approx 80% throttle and run off these tables on many vehicles. There are some that still use the knock sensor at roughly 80% to full throttle, but very few.

[Rock]

I know that not all cars use knock-sensors. I was just stating an example of operation. You stated that "the higher the octane the slower it burns. This is how it counteracts pre ignition. But it does slow the fuel burn time the higher the octane."

No! That is just plain not true. Octane does not equal burn-speed (more properly called "deflagration"), which you seem to be fixated on. It may be true that, generally, high-octane fuels tend to have a slower rate, but it's only a relative indicator... it's not because of the octane. Octane is not a measure of deflagration (burn-speed), it is a measure of resistance to detonation.

Octane rating is a measure of detonation resistance, not deflagration characteristics.

You can have two fuels that burn at the same rate, but with different octanes. However, one of them will be more prone to knock, and the optimum ignition timing will be different for one than the other. But they both burn at the same rate.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

[ECM747X]

I know that not all cars use knock-sensors. I was just stating an example of operation.

My point was that octane does NOT equal burn-speed (more properly called "deflagration"), which you seem to be fixated on. It may be true that, generally, high-octane fuels burn at a slower rate, but it's NOT because of the octane. Octane is NOT a measure of deflagration (burn-speed).

You can have two fuels that burn at the same rate, but with different octanes. However, one of them will be more prone to knock, and the optimum ignition timing will be different for one than the other. But they both burn at the same rate.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

YOu are partially right and wrong on this one. I think we are saying close to the same thing just in different ways.
Deflagration is on flame velocities/propagation, not burn speed as you say. These are two different things, speed and velocity. Different octane fuels will have the same velocity/ propagation of the flame, just due to them being the same fuel.
You are right that octane is not a measure of deflagration, but using the same type of fuel with different octane will ignite at a different rate in a compressed condition.
I think where the confusion in what I am saying as speed is with higher octane fuels there is a delay/slower ignition in higher octane fuels. Thus taking longer to reach full flame propagation. Which is deflagration. This is what I am saying is the longer burn time. It takes longer for it to ignite. Not trying to confuse anyone. Just didn't say exactly what I was referring to.

As far as how safe it is, well it is like anything that is combustible. What I did is this, for a safety factor and to make sure the unit is not drawing power with the car shut off, added a relay that is connected to the power wire going the plates in the HHO tank. It will not power up the unit unless the car is running. I also have a switch that I wired in that I turn off about a mile from the house to suck out any HHO that might still be in the tube. If I shut the car off there could still be a little HHO coming out of the tube if I didn't have this switch. I doubt there would be much. But just added this as a safety factor. With the car running there is always a vacuum drawing the gas out.
Also, I went with a stainless tank for a safety factor as well. I have seen many using mason jars, plastic and many other objects. I wanted something that would be strong and not be prone to cracking, warping and breaking. With how mine is and it is similar to the one shown in the link I posted in the first post, there isn't that much free space for free Hydrogen. I top off my water tank with each fill up and usually only have to add right at 1/3 to 1/2 gallon max.
Plus the supply tube is encased in another hard plastic sheeting for added protection.